Thursday, January 24, 2013

Talking to Jehovah Witnesses



This is a collection of Scriptures to help Jehovah Witnesses in their relationship with God. If you are a JW and you are reading this know before you began reading this that I have never been a JW. Also, this is not really preaching or teaching from another religion. It is more of a collection of Scriptures with my questions about them. All the Bible verses in this are from the New World Translation unless otherwise indicated because I know this to be the most acceptable translation for the JW’s.

To my knowledge most Jehovah Witnesses believe:

You cannot be saved to eternal life just by faith in Jesus but you must have works too.
You will never know you are actually saved till God resurrects you to eternal life.
Jesus and God are not one God but two. A Jehovah God and a small god, Jesus, God’s created son.
The Holy Spirit is an active force of God. He does not have his own mind apart from God.
They believe Revelation is mostly figurative and not literal.
They believe that Hell is the grave where sinners are annihilated and pretty much no longer exists; not a place of everlasting fire.
They do believe there is a heaven, but only 144,000 people will go there. Some JW’s believe these 144,000 have already been chosen and others believe some have not been chosen yet.

1) Is salvation through Jesus alone or does it include our works too?

Ephesians 2:8-9
By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU​ have been saved through faith; and this not owing to ​YOU, it is God’s gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.

Do works save us here or faith?

Notes: the past tense of “been saved”. Doesn’t this mean that you already have been saved if you have faith in Jesus, not that you are going to be saved?

Titus 3:4-7
However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part of our Savior, God, was manifested, owing to no works in righteousness that we had performed, but according to his mercy he saved us through the bath that brought us to life and through the making of us new by holy spirit. This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, that, after being declared righteous by virtue of the undeserved kindness of that one, we might become heirs according to a hope of everlasting life.

Romans 3:27-28
Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith. For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.

No works of righteousness can save us from our sin. Only through Jesus can we be saved.

James 2:17
Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

Is this a contradiction in Scripture?

Or can they coexist?
Maybe James is saying that if someone has truly been saved by faith then they are going to be so thankful to God for what He has done that they will be doing good with their life. We “mankind” cannot see the heart to know if someone’s faith is real but, we can see the works someone does. So for me to know someone is saved they must proclaim faith in Jesus and have good works, and same for them to know I am saved, but, for us to actually be saved; what saves us is faith in Jesus.

John 14:15
“If ​YOU​ love me, ​YOU​ will observe my commandments;

If someone has been truly saved from their sins by Jesus they are going to love God for it and try to do all that He asks, but that is not what saves them; it is just the effect that salvation has on them. It is the evidence of their heart.

2) Can we know for sure that we have eternal life?

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the witness given, that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life; he that does not have the Son of God does not have this life. I write ​YOU​ these things that ​YOU​ may know that ​YOU​ have life everlasting, ​YOU​ who put ​YOUR​ faith in the name of the Son of God.

Notes: the past tense of the word “gave”. He has already given the people, to whom John is talking to here, eternal life. The people he is talking to, in these verses, are those that have put their faith in Jesus. If you have repented of your sin and put your faith in Jesus you have already been given eternal life. He is writing this so we can know this for sure.

John 5:24
Most truly I say to ​YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

It says, if you believe, you have everlasting life. This is stated as fact.

3) Who is Jesus in connection to God?

Isa. 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Who is this child? It’s Jesus, right?
Who is He called? Mighty God, Eternal Father!
If this is not calling Jesus the Jehovah God then why is it capitalized? Other places in Scripture that refer to a father as being other than God the Father, the word “father” is not capitalize. Here it is. This must be talking about God the Father then. Jehovah.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga," says Jehovah God..."

This is the almighty God, correct?

Revelation 22:13
"I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last..."

This is still talking about the Almighty God, correct?

Revelation 1:17-18
"“Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever,..."

Who is this then?
If these Scriptures are talking about Jehovah God then when was God ever dead and then alive again? Jesus was, though.

Did God create all or did Jesus create all?

Gen. 1:1
In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Who is this that created all things? God!

Col. 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Now, who created all things? Jesus? Or maybe you would say that God created through Jesus but, then what of the next Scripture?

Isaiah 45:7-8
Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things. “O YOU heavens, cause a dripping from above; and let the cloudy skies themselves trickle with righteousness. Let the earth open up, and let it be fruitful with salvation, and let it cause righteousness itself to spring up at the same time. I myself, Jehovah, have created it.”

Notes: the word “myself”.  Jehovah God said He created it Himself, not through anyone. Is this a contradiction in Scripture or, is it that Jesus and God are both Jehovah God and so both created everything?

When Col. 1:15 says Jesus is the “firstborn of creation” some believe that this is proof that Jesus is not God because how can God create Himself? They think that this is saying that. So, they see Jesus as a little “g” god under Jehovah God. But then what of this next verse?

Isaiah 43:10-11
“YOU​ are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that ​YOU​ may know and have faith in me, and that ​YOU​ may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

How is savior? Jesus or God?

God said there is no God after him. So how can Jesus be a god?

If this verse is true, but Jesus is not God then who can Jesus even be?

Why is Col. 1:15 saying he is the “firstborn of creation”? In the Jewish culture the firstborn of the family was in authority over the other sibling. This is saying that Jesus is in authority over creation? Also, when it says “because by means of him all [other] things were created” the word “other” is in brackets because it is not in the verse originally. Would not this then make more sense without this added word if Jesus was not created? Why the need to add to Scripture with this word? Is someone trying to change its meaning?

Did Jesus claim to be God?

John 10:28-30
And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.

How can Jesus and God be one and Jesus not be God?

Some would say that this means they are one as in the same mind set and plan; not one being; One God. But then why talk about their hands, a physical aspect of them? If the ones that have everlasting life are in Jesus' hand and in God's hand at the same time then would not they be the same hands? This is what Jesus said.

John 5:18
On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

I have two sons. If they called me their mother would that make them equal to me in authority? No!

Then why would the Jews think this when Jesus called God his Father?

I am human and there are lots of other humans, so for my sons to say they are my sons is fine because it is saying they are also human and my sons, but there is only one God. To say He has a son is to say there is another God which would make Jehovah God a liar because in Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 43:10-12 he says He is the only God. Was Jesus making God a liar? I do not think so. He is saying He is God and that is why the Jews were so mad. That is why they said He was making himself equal to God.
No one can be equal to God but God himself.

Yes, two being one at the same time is something only God could pull off.

Why did Jesus accept worship if He is not God?

John 4:23
Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Is the worship here true worship to God?

This verse is in the NT and was first in Greek.
The Greek word used here is: προσκυνέω "proskuneó" means: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

Lets look at some other verse with the same Greek word.

Matthew. 28:9
And, look! Jesus met them and said: “Good day!” They approached and caught him by his feet and did obeisance to him.
Just then Jesus met them and said, "Good morning!" They came up, took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him. (HMCSB)

Matthew 8:2
And, look! a leprous man came up and began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, if you just want to, you can make me clean.”

Mark 5:6
But on catching sight of Jesus from a distance he ran and did obeisance to him

These are all the same Geek word.

If Jesus knew he was not God then why did he not stop them or tell them not to do this?

Revelation 22:8-9
Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.”

This is the same Greek word. As soon as John started to worship the angel he told him not to.

If Jesus is not God then why did he allow men to worship/obeisance him?

Also, if this is the same Greek word, then why did the translators of this NWT translation write them differently? Could they be trying to hide something from the readers? Could they be trying to make the Bible fit their beliefs instead of allowing the Bible, the word of God to dictate their beliefs?

Matthew 2:11a
And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it.

Matthew 2:11a
When the men went into the house and saw the child with Mary, his mother, they knelt down and worshiped him. (CEV)

Jesus’ mother, Mary, did not even stop them from worshiping Him.

Exodus 34:14
For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;

(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) (ESV)

You are to never bow down to another god because the LORD, being jealous by nature, is a jealous God. (HMCSB)

This is an OT verse, so it is a Hebrew word but with pretty much the same meaning.
שָׁחָה "shaw-khaw'" meaning from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: A primitive root; to depress, i.e. Prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God) -- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.
So even if the word “obeisance” was a slightly different thing then worshiping it would still be wrong to do to anyone other than Jehovah God because this verse says not to do it to another god. So would not that mean that Jesus should not have accepted obeisance from anyone unless he is Jehovah God?

John 1:1
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god

If the expression "Word" is Jesus and He "was a god", as the NWT versions of the Bible says then would not this just further my point that no one should worship him and he should not accept worship?

It would also be a lie because there is no gods besides Jehovah God as it says in Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 43:10-12. God is the one and only God ever. People can try and make up gods to worship but they are not really gods they are just made up and we know that Jesus was not made up.

If the "Word" is Jesus and Jesus “was God” as other versions of the Bible say, then it would all make sense and there would not be any contradictions or lack of cohesiveness in these Scriptures.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Jesus did not stop people from calling Him God.

John 20:28
In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!

If Jesus is not God why did he not correct Thomas?

Did Jesus out do God in love?

John 15:13
No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.

Some other translations say “lay down his life” but either way we know that this is talking about Jesus paying the price for our sins by dying on the cross. So, if this was the greatest act of love and Jesus and God are not one being than Jesus outdid God in loving us, did he not? If they are one being then God himself did the greatest act of love for us.

So the word of God the Bible teaches us that Jesus is God and God is Jesus.

4) Is the Holy Spirit a “being” or a force?

Acts 28:25
So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to ​YOUR​ forefathers,

If the Holy Spirit was just a force of God then how could it think to have anything to say? How can it speak through someone?

Romans 8:26
In like manner the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness; for the [problem of] what we should pray for as we need to we do not know, but the spirit itself pleads for us with groanings unuttered.
Isn’t the Spirit being talked about as a separate being here? It says “itself”.

Also, who is the Spirit pleading to for us? If He was just an active force of God and was not a being then how and why would Gods active force plead to Himself on our behalf?

Ephesians 4:30
Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which ​YOU​ have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.

If this was just a force of God and not a separate being then why this wording? Why not just say “not to grieve God”? Why the distinction that it is the Holy Spirit being grieved? Can a force be grieved?

John 14:16-17
and I will request the Father and he will give ​YOU​ another helper to be with ​YOU​ forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU​ know it, because it remains with ​YOU​ and is in ​YOU.

Is not Jesus talking about two distinct beings here? He says, Father (one being) and Spirit (another being). If it was just the Father’s force then why not just say “I will ask the Father to come be with you”? It does not say that, instead it says “another helper”.

Matthew 12:31-32
“On this account I say to ​YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

How can you blasphemy a force? But you can against a being.

So Jehovah God the Father and the Holy Spirit are two beings but we will see that they are also one being.

Is the Holy Spirit God the Father?
2 Cor. 3:17-18
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

Notes: the word “the”. If it had just left out the word “the” then it could be argued that it is saying that Jehovah has a spirit but it is saying he is the Spirit. Is not this stating that Jehovah God is the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said: “Anani′as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.

In this Scripture “to play false” means to lie. It says they were lying to the Holy Spirit and to God at the same time. If the Holy Spirit was just a force of God and not a being then how could it be lied to? Also, it would go against the Scriptures up above. But if this is a being and not just a force then it would be another god, which can’t be because it would go against other Scriptures we already looked at that there is only one God. So it must be that these two beings are also one being.

I understand that this is hard to understand. The Bible is either full of contradictions and flaws (which I do not believe) or God is three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is divine and they are only one God.

It is interesting to me that JW’s seem to have no problem believing that the Father and Son are two being but that the Father and Spirit are only one being. But yet they believe that the Father and Son cannot be one being and the Holy Spirit and God cannot be two separate beings.

The Bible clearly talks about all three of them having their own identity and all three of them being Jehovah God.

5) Is Revelation figurative or literal?

Is the 144,000 the only people going to heaven?

If all of Revelation is figurative then how can it be known that the number 144,000 is a literal exact count?

The only place this number is found in the Bible is in Revelation 7:4, Revelation 14:3.

I have read some Watchtower pamphlets. In one it sites Revelation 21:4-5 as being true and something we can look forward to.

Revelation 21:4-5
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”

Later on in the chapter it says:

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.”

If Hell is not a place that people burn for their sins then at what point between vv. 5 and vv.8 did it no longer become literal?

Revelation 20:6
Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

Here is another number in Revelation. Is this number a literal number or not? Who decides?

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.

So is God going to establish is Kingdom on this earth or on the new earth? How do we know this is literally going to happen and not just metaphoric?

Revelation 1:1a
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.

If the book of Revelation is figurative then why does it say right at the beginning “things that must shortly take place” in reference to this book?

Revelation 21:5-6a
And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”And he said to me: “They have come to pass!

Now the angel is talking in present time and says “They have come to pass!”

Then at almost the very end of the book of Revelation the angel tells John again that these things will take place.

Revelation 22:6
And he said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.

It sounds to me like everything in Revelation is true and will happen as it says it will. No figurativeness.

Revelation 22:18-19
“I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.

If something is stated as a fact and someone is saying it should not be taken literally, aren’t they pretty much taking away from what it said?

We can get in a lot of trouble if we are saying things are not literal if they are.

I do not think that anyone should presume to know if something in the Bible should be taken figuratively unless it says it is not literal in the texts its self.

6) Is Hell really hell or just annihilation?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on ​YOUR​ way from me, ​YOU​ who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Where is this if not hell?

Revelation 20:10
And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is not this saying that some of the beings that God created will be sent to Hell? Also, it says that the beast and false prophet were already there. It says they will be tormented forever. So this would mean they were not just annihilated, wouldn't it?

Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.

So what else would this fiery furnace be but Hell?

If the people being put here were immediately annihilated, then why would there be time for weeping and gnashing of teeth? Does not this imply a period of ongoing pain?

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Ge·hen´na, where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.

Why would the maggot not die from this fire but all sinners be annihilated from it?

Or is it that people are not annihilated? Wouldn’t that make more sense with what this Scripture says?

Also, why is the fire not put out?

Matthew 18:8-9
If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter one‐eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehen′na.

Everlasting fire sounds like Hell to me.

Daniel 12:2
And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.

It says “lasting”. Does the word “lasting” really mean “just for a moment” or does it mean “lasting”?

How can you have lasting abhorrence if you are just annihilated?

John 3:36
He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

This word "remains" in the Greek means: to stay, abide, remain.

How can God's wrath stay or remain on someone that no longer exists if sinners are annihilated after death?

Acts 24:15
and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

John 5:19
and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Do people that are not having eternal life just stay dead or are they also resurrected?

What are they resurrected for?

What could this added judgment be if not Hell? They are already dead.

Revelation 14:11
he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Notice, that God is the one pouring out the wrath, not the Devil.

The smoke will go on forever, no rest day or night. This sounds like Hell to me. How about you?

Notes, that a lot of the Scripture that talk about Hell are not even in Rev. So can we take all of the Bible figuratively whenever we do not like what it is saying or do we need to take it literal unless the texts its self says not to.

At this time you may be thinking “but whet then of Eccl. 9:5-6”?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6                                                 
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.

These verses are clearly talking about people that are dead not having any more consciousness of the things going on in this earth while they are dead. Not that they do not know what is going on around them where they are. Notes, it says “done under the sun”. For this reason it does not contribute to whether there is a Hell or not or what Hell really is. If it were to be saying there was no Hell or that Hell was nothingness it would mean that the Bible contradicts itself because of some of the other Scripture we have looked at. So, it is a good thing it is not saying that or we could have no confidence in the Bible.

7) How about Heaven?

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

If we don't go to heaven then where are these people going with the Lord?

2 Corinthians 5:8
But we are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.

What does that mean then if not heaven?

If this home with the Lord is here on earth then why would we be absent from the body?

Did the thief on the cross go straight to heaven?
Luke 23:42-43
And he went on to say: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

When it says "Truly I tell you today" did he really mean a lot of years from now?
Is this another time when we can pick and choose what to take figurative? Or did he really mean today?

Some added questions:

Why did Jesus come and die for us?
What is Jesus saving us from?
If I believe in Jesus and you don’t believe in Hell what is the concern you have for me?

These questions can be hard for a JW to answer because I have found most of them do not understand salvation. Even if they will say at times they are not about “works” they really are. They do not see themselves as being a saved person right now but rather that they may become saved. I have found it is good to ask questions like this sometimes to see where they are at. Also, sometimes it helps to have a question ready to get them talking or they may just leave their papers and go.

I have a big problem with how the Jehovah's Witnesses use Scripture. Instead of allowing Scripture to change their doctrine when they see it does not line up with Scripture they seem to change Scripture.

 Some examples:

They will say a Scripture is figurative or a metaphoric when it does not indicate this in the text.

They will say it must not be meaning what it plainly says because they do not understand it.

They will add words in their translation of the Bible that are not in the Greek writing to make the Scripture sound like it is backing their doctrine when it is not.

They will just ignore Scripture if they cannot make it somehow line up with their doctrine.

There is a different between explaining a Scripture and explaining away a Scripture.

Sadly I have seen Christians do these things now and then, myself included. I really try not to now that I see it.

Some tips when talking with Jehovah Witnesses that I try to remember:

The word “trinity” is not in the Bible. It is just a term Christians use when talking about the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how they are one and yet three at the same time. JW’s will put up a wall if you use this term. I have been told by other Christians and have found for myself that it is best to just use Scripture to explain the concept of the trinity and just not use the word “trinity” at all.

When talking about Hell it is best to use Scripture that is not in the book of Rev. first; unless you have already established that Rev. is not to be taken figuratively.

Sometimes I want to use too many Scripture at one time to show JW’s something. This can make it easier for them to ignore some of the Scripture. Don’t let them over look a Scripture if you can.

If you want them to come back then take their papers that they are giving out (if not do not accept the papers they may not come back). When you take the papers they see this as an opening to come bring you more at a later time.

Do not get caught up talking about celebrating holidays. Try and stick to topics that really matter, like, Jesus is God.

Show them the truth through asking them questions if you can. In most of this paper I have tried to do this. Jesus did this a lot in His ministry and I think it can be a lot more effective then preaching at them.

Try to be as kind as you can be. They encounter a lot of rude people. Try not to be one more. Even if you are only able to tell them you are a Christian and they see that you are kind it could make a different to their thinking.

Make sure your intentions for talking with them is right. If you just want to prove them wrong it is not of much value. They are human beings with souls that need to be saved by Jesus. The Holy Spirit may use you as a tool to do this or he may not. It is ultimately up to Him.

Keep them at your door as long as you can. The more time they spend at your door the less time they are spending at a door of a person who may not be saved.

I hope this is helpful to everyone one that reads it. I know studying this all out has really helped me. I really have a heart for the JW’s. It is sad to me to see a group of people working so hard to obtain something that they can never work hard enough to get. I am going to be doing a sequel to this sometime. I have some for it already. I would have added it to this but then I think I would never have gotten around to posting it because I just keep finding new Scriptures that contradict the JW’s teaching.

Wednesday, January 2, 2013

Selfless Love!


Something I have been thinking about.

I had never really understood the phrase "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me". I always thought that it was stupid, something little kids would say that did not really make any sense or something that people would say when they did not want to admit that something that was just said really hurt their feeling. I have come to realize that it actually makes perfect sense. It is also so very true. I mean, who really has the control of my feeling and emotions? I do, and if I don’t that is my own fault. If I don’t have control, it is because I have chosen to loss control or at least have not taken the steps to gain control to begin with. In Gal, 5:22-23 it even says that one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control. Can a person’s feelings really be hurt without permission from the one with the feelings? I do not believe so. So really this phrase makes a lot of sense. People can push me, pock me, beat me up, and wear my body out but they cannot touch what is underneath without my promotion. God has given us this unique and wonderful free will to choose. He has also promise to help with this if we ask. Phil. 4:13 says "I can do all things through him who strengthens me."

Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

No one but me can MAKE me feel mad. No one but me can MAKE me feel inferior. No one but me can MAKE me feel jealous. No one but me can MAKE me feel sad or hurt. No one but me can allow someone to manipulate my emotions. No one but me can MAKE me feel love for another. Only I am responsible for my own feelings. Only I am held accountable by God for my own feelings. We cannot control what people say to us. We cannot control how people treat us but we can control how we react and respond both inwardly and outwardly. Prov. 16:32 says that whoever is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

If we truly love others then we will not allow even the most hateful word spoken by them to allow our reaction to them to be anything other than kindness, truth, and a true concern for their eternal soul. Anything less is not showing love to them and shows a pride and love for one’s self. It is not the love of Christ, and if we say we are of Christ we are to be always trying to show his love. How can we do any less when he has taken on the eternal hell due us to save our souls?

1 John 4:13-21
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Wednesday, July 11, 2012

The Word of God!


Something I have been learning.

If I value my opinions over Scripture then I do not value Scripture at all. Anytime someone who does this reads the Bible, the truth of it will be filtered away by their opinions, preconceived ideas, and biased. If I want to know the truth then I must leave my prospective by the rode. Only then will I gain God’s perspective by reading His word and allowing it to speak its truth for its self. If I don’t understand it then I should read more of it until I do. I won’t ignore or explain away what I don’t understand anymore.

2 Peter 1:19-21
And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Thursday, February 16, 2012

We can only be touched by Satan at the hand of God

I have heard quite a few people say things lately about God that has given me pause. You know, those statements you hear some times that you think to yourself “I am sure that is not right, but I cannot think of a clear Biblical response, using Scripture why”. So, I have been looking into a lot of these things. Not to “...quarrel about words...” as 2 Timothy 2:14-16 says. It also says “...to present yourself (myself) to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble...” That is my intent.

Here we go. The first question; does God give Satan permission to do harm to us? The second is does God himself ever harm us? I have found the answers to be yes to both of these questions based on Scriptures from God's word. Here they are:

Does God give Satan permission to do harm to us?
First let’s look at who has all power.

Psalm 62:11
Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God,

Revelation 19:1b
...“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Power belongs to God. Not anyone else. It is God's. So, in order for someone or something to have power besides God, it must have been given to them by God.

Romans 13:1b
...For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Jesus tells Pilate that only God can give power.

John 19:10-11a
10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above...

When on earth, even Jesus had to be given His power/authority.

John 17:1-2
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

So, obviously we can see from this that only God can give power or authority to do something.

You may be thinking, then what of verses like these:


Hebrews 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

or


1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

The answer really is quite simple. God gave Satan the power over death. He has allowed Satan to do everything he has done. There by giving him permission to do it. Now throughout scripture we can see that God's plan is to take that power back from Satan bit by bit to Glorify Himself. But that takes us a little off topic so I won’t totally get into that at this time.

You may think "well, just because God gives someone power it does not mean he is giving them permission to do bad things with it". I think that would be a valid argument if God was not omniscient (1 Samuel 2:3, Hebrews 4:13). If I was to give power to someone and they misused it, it would not be the same as giving permission because I do not see the future. I do not know their heart. I would have no way of knowing for sure what they were going to do with it. God does. Also, I could not have complete oversight to stop them if I saw them about to do something bad. God does.

Omniscient: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Permission: the act of permitting.

Now, let’s look at a clear examples from scripture of God giving over power and thereby giving permission to Satan to do things to man.

God gave permission to Satan to torment Job twice.

Job 1:6-12
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3-6
3 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” 4 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”

Job knows it is God's doing.

Job 19:21
Have mercy on me, have mercy on me, O you my friends, for the hand of God has touched me!

In Job's case we can see that his hardships ordained by God were not a response to sin in his life. So, it was not God disciplining him. But, it seems it was to grow Job in his faith and in his relationship with his Creator. Pretty much it was to teach Job something.

On a side note, this was really helpfully for me to finally understand because, for a long time, I did not understand how God could do what he did to Job. But now it is comforting to me to know that God would do anything to show us a little more of who He is and to draw us closer to Him.

Lets look at some Scripture about people being handed over to Satan to torment their bodies in response to the sin in their life. Discipline from God through the use of Satan.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Psalm 119:67
Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.

From all of these Scriptures I would have to say the answer to the first question is yes. God does give Satan permission to do harm to us at times.


Does God Himself ever harm us?


Well, let’s just look at what the Word says.

God is the one that smote Jesus.


Isaiah 53:4
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

He wounds our body to discipline us and then heals us to grow us.

Job 5:17-18
17 “Behold, blessed is the one whom God reproves; therefore despise not the discipline of the Almighty. 18 For he wounds, but he binds up; he shatters, but his hands heal.

Isaiah 30:26b
...in the day when the LORD binds up the brokenness of his people, and heals the wounds inflicted by his blow.

Deuteronomy 32:39
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

Proverbs 3:11-12
11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof, 12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Deuteronomy 8:5
Know then in your heart that, as a man disciplines his son, the LORD your God disciplines you.

God promises to punish with a plague.

Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,

Nothing can happen without God allowing it.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Jude 1:25
to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Something to consider: Who is it that cursed this earth? Man, Satan, or God?

Genesis 3:16-17
16 To the woman he said (“He” here is talking about God), “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life.

God is the one cursing everything here. Yes, it is in response to their actions but it is God who is doing the cursing. Also, it is God who gave them the ability to eat from the tree in the first please and He who put the tree in the garden. It was and is all part of God's big plan.

So based on the word of God, the answer to both questions is YES!

God does give Satan permission to do harm to us at times and He also harms us Himself at times. The only way Satan can do any harm at all is through God allowing/giving permission to him. If you think about it, to say that Satan is doing harm to us all on his own would be to say, at best, that he has power in and of himself (another deity). At worst it's to say that he is somehow more powerful then God to be able to be sabotaging God's will for our lives (another deity that is greater then God). Of course both of these are preposterous. All power and ability is given and allowed by God. No man or being can do any act of good or harm without God allowing it.

I know some people maybe are thinking at this point "what about Christians" or “but God is loving, how can He harm us or be allowing harm to us”. The answers to these are easier then you may think.

A few scriptures that we have already seen allowed to the disciplines of Christians but I am going to come back to this in a minuet and first look at an analogy.

I am a mother. I have a handsome little boy. I love my son more than my life. I want the absolute best for him. But my son is not perfect at all. He is a little sinner just like the rest of us. He wants his own way and will disobey, hit, scream and even throw himself on the ground and kick his legs sometimes (I know, so cliché of him lol). This does not ever make me love him less. But I know that this bad behavior of his is not best for him. I know that if he grows up without this behavior being corrected he will not be able to have a very full productive life. No one would want to hire him. Mostly, no one would want to date or marry him. He will not have the self-discipline to tell himself “No” to some things in order to make better plans for the future. Also, to just let him have everything he wants could prevent him from even growing up. He could die of obesity from too many cookies or from running into the street because he would not come when I called him.

All that is to say, what would be the loving thing to do? It would be to discipline him. Sadness over not getting or doing what he wants now is not going to hurt as much as the sadness of the life to come if I do not discipline him.

Hebrews 12:11
For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

OK, now let’s focus on Christians. Notice, these next verses are clearly talking about Christians being discipline and not the unsaved.

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

Hebrews 12:5-11
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Part of the problem I have seen people have with understanding all of this is that they see discipline as a bad thing. Parents will think of it has being a bad thing they have to do so their children will be good (so, people do not understand how a good God could do something bad). The thing is that discipline is not a bad thing at all. Just because it may hurt does not make it a bad thing. Working out may hurt at times but it’s not a bad thing. Eating your vegetables may not always be pleasant but they are not a bad. Discipline is a good thing that a parent can do to help their child. God is doing good as He disciplines.

On a side note: There are times parents think they are disciplining and they really are not. They are being abusive. They are acting out in anger and violence because they are frustrated or they are trying to get back at their child for acting out and embarrassing them or something. That is not discipline and is a bad thing and will just make your child angry.

Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Discipline is always for the good and love of the child.

Proverbs 13:24
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

If you do not discipline your child, then you are really hating them.

God is our Father and Creator (See Ps. 139:13). He loves us more then we could possibly fully know. He wants the absolute best for us.

But here is the thing, God knows the past, present, and future of his creation. He can see our every thought. He knows what needs to happen to us in order for us to have the best.

Notest, from Hebrews 12 upbove, if he is not ever disciplining you then you are not really a christain. "...then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

Here is the other thing. The best for us is to have a relationship with Him. The best for us is to be doing what he means for us to do and that is to bring Him Glory (See Isaiah 43:7). But he is Holy and the only way to have a relationship with him is to also be Holy. Our sin keeps us from being Holy and so from having a relationship with God (See Isaiah 59:2). That is why Jesus came and died to pay for our sins. When God looks at those that understand that they deserve Hell, repent of their sins and put their faith and trust in Jesus alone, their relationship with God on His end can now be restored. (Here are some Scriptures on salvation and restoring our relationship with God. See Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 6:23a ; John 3:16, 36 ; Luke 13:3 ; Romans 10:9-13).

But even though this would completely restore God's relationship with us it does not mean His work is us is finished. When God looks at us, he sees Jesus’ Holiness. But even though our sin is forgiven (past, present and future) by God it does not mean that we can't allow our sin to hurt our relationship with Him. Now don't misunderstand me. Once the relationship of God with us through Jesus is made it can never be broken (See John 10:27-30). It was not earned by good works and can not be lost by bad or lack of good works. (Ephesians 2:8-9). But it can be damaged (See 1 Peter 3:7). God knows it is best for Christians if He is working on us to make us more and more holy until one day when we are with him we will never sin again. He knows that the more we learn now the better relationship we will have here on earth with Him. He knows that some Christians will struggle more than others and may never have the best relationship with Him here but, it does not stop Him from disciplining them and guiding them to give them the option. He knows how a Christian behaves can bring Glory to His name or not. He knows when it does it can also be used to bring more people to Jesus’ saving grace (See Matthew 5:16).

I am writing a lot on this point and I do not want any one to think this is just my opinion but rather what the word of God teaches. So, I am just going to give Scripture that explans that even though we are saved God wants to still do a work in us.

2 Peter 1:1-9
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (Note, these people are Christians) 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Another side note: Rom. 8:28 does not mean that all things work together for good for everyone. Only for those who love God and are called according to his purpose: Christians!

I am so thankful that God is in control and is going to do whatever it takes to make my relationship with Him closer and closer. I am so thankful that Satan has no power to do anything to me that God will not let him do. I am thankful that when He does allow Satan to do something to me to discipline me or to merely teach me something it is for my good, to draw me closer to Him. I am so thankful that God has promised to see me through it all. He will never forsake me! See Hebrews 13:5b, Josh 1:5 and...

2 Corinthians 4:7-18
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.
13 Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we also believe, and so we also speak, 14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. 15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

I could not say it better if I tried. :)

To sum it up, God does give Satan permission to do harm to us some times. This can be discipline or just Him teaching us something. All power belongs to God. Not anyone else. It is God's alone. Any power that a man or spirit being has is from God. Nothing can happen without God allowing it. God does harm our bodies at times. Again, to either teach us something about himself or to discipline us for sin, in order to draw us closer to himself. The Bible is clear that Christians receive discipline and if they never are then they may not really be Christian. Discipline is always for our good and to show His love of us. If God never disciplines you then He does not love you. But just as an FYI, He loves all so all are disciplined by Him. It is all for his glory which is what is best for us.


Something I have been thinking about through this study. When I receive reproof, how do I respond? What does my response say about me?

Proverbs 9:8
Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.

Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 1:29-30
29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, 30 would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,

I am writing this for my benefit. I am posting it to be helpful to anyone that has wondered about this topic and wants to study it for themselves. Sooooo, if you disagree you can post a comment but I may not get back to you. This is not something that is my opinion that I found Scripture to back up. It is what Scripture says and my thoughts on it after the Word of God has already stated it.

Saturday, September 17, 2011

Starting Something New

Hey, everyone. I am excited about this. I am going to start a live journal of sorts on here. I am going to try and post two to three post a week.